One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. Beats. The concern that a round will pass through an assailant and harm an innocent bystander is largely exaggerated. interacts online and researches product purchases An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. Model. The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! FN DUH! But Im my opinion, they are tools! In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. If you have to revisit the basics of projectile ballistics, here is a decent place to start. This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. Even long range shots! the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. View our Terms of Service The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. I seen it first hand as well. Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. Theres been many people shot and continue. Love it. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. Plus, this decision saves the military a substantial amount of money as Glocks are cheap, and the 9mm ammo is also very affordable and, perhaps more importantly, readily available. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. Cool story for real. Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. Think the title of this article is misleading. This doesnt factor shot placement. 2. The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. Rookie year. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. Shot placement was nearly identical. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. So its purpose is based on design. By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. So many guns so little time! Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. Well, depends on whom you ask. F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. While there are uninformed opinions regarding stopping power, thankfully, there is also plenty of credible research. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. So, the answer is simple, right? But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. All rights reserved. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. I served in the USMC and in combat. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. Lexipol. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. Open carry is fine where Im at. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. A tool yes but not a valid substitute. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. Reality. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. Over time, conditions that damage the liver can lead to scarring (cirrhosis), which can lead to liver failure, a life-threatening condition. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. In most courtrooms today a good lawyer will take you apart for shooting a home invader more than one time if you hit him with the first shot in other words you wounded him with the first shot why did you keep shooting? The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. Some basic physics explains why the choice of weapon, or more precisely, the choice of bullet, enabled the suspect, James Hodgkinson, who was killed by law enforcement officers, to wreak so much havoc. Unless they needed concealablity. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. When the. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. Repeat over and over, and keep doing so even after proficiency is achieved. The .50 In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the It is also a logistics factor 45 is just one more different ammo to resupply. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. F=MA is F=MA. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Cheap crap. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. I can buy that. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. While, I understand that budgetary issues are a factor they should not come before the safety of the officer pr soldier. Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. Okay 9s are cool, hold a lot of rounds, small recoil, cheap to shoot and buy. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. Then get ready for a gunfight. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. I think it is more the exception than the rule. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. Spend the little extra money and get the 5.56 chambered AR so you can safely shoot the higher pressure and accurate 5.56 ammunition and leave the .223 in the store. This was not a good CC carry for me so I stoped carring for a while. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. By submitting your information, you agree to be contacted by the selected vendor(s) The body's liver, pancreas and kidneys also can make about 1 gram of creatine per day. Concurr on 45 and m14 . Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. More rounds the better. Your shot placement will be perfect. A 5 psi blast overpressure will rupture eardrums in about 1% of subjects, and a 45 psi overpressure will cause eardrum rupture in about 99% of all subjects. Hmmmmsince there probably wont be any takers how about we all shake hands and realize were all bound brothers with the same interest. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. Involved in a shooting with my partner. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. There are four major handgun founding factors. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. Thanks for your comment! The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. Before he did this there was almost as many different firearms within the department as deputies. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 450 ft/s will make a hole in, but not penetrate 4" plate glass. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. You can either hit a target or not that simple. John Michael Callahan served in law enforcement for 44 years. thanks for your time, greg. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. Train! That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. Practice, practice, practice. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. In September 2014, LooserRounds posted an article titled FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection. If it doesnt get deleted for my impatience with thoughtless comments. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. I prefer 45 revolvers. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. EVER! While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. Died instantly. So In a effort to I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. It doesnt get more damaging that that. I cant compare to 9mm but I still want to carry 45acp. Skorpion Ammo Type: 9 mm. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. The FEE reports that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, which means youre more likely to use a gun in self defense than you are to be killed in a car accident. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. Ret. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. But thats a subject for another article. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. I was in the military and was law enforcement. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not The science says otherwise. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. Its too small. Im sure many hunters can attest to the expansion of rifle bullets recovered from their game. Practice while on the move. In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. I shot Master for a while. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. Another may be more easily rattled, where a head shot is possible but still iffy. Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? We report stories that would go untold. Now I am a fan of 45s. WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. Give me a 45 any day! Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? False. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration.